Introducing Dolly Jones | Former Vogue Editor, and Author OF ‘LEAVING THE LADDER DOWN’
Meet Dolly Jones, former editor of Vogue.co.uk and author of Leaving The Ladder Down, a book born from decades at the top of the fashion media world. Having spent twenty years shaping one of the world's most recognised digital destinations from its earliest, scrappiest days, Dolly knows better than most what it takes to build something from nothing, and what it costs. Now, with her children grown and her ambitions recalibrated, she has finally written the book she always meant to. Join us as we explore creativity, courage and the quiet power of waiting until you're ready, with a woman who arrived at Vogue almost by accident, stayed because she couldn't leave, and is only just getting started.
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“I never meant to work at Vogue for so long but I landed there very early in its digital life and it was a rollercoaster thrill that was hard to leave. I originally got the job by accidentally applying for it as two different people – formally as Charmian Jones (my real name, often confused with Charmaine which infuriates my mother after whom I’m named) shortly before being introduced to the original Vogue.com editor, my first boss, by a friend as Dolly – the nickname I’ve answered to my whole life. So applying for one job as two people gave me a pretty good chance. I was intimidated by the fashion world and the internet, but I tend to work hardest when I’m scared. I always wanted to write a book but never felt I had enough life experience, and once I had my children that ambition felt more voracious.”
Our In Conversation lunch with Dolly Jones at The Sloane Club
Leaving the Ladder Down is rooted in hundreds of conversations with women. What surprised you most once the patterns began to emerge?
The pride and joy that women feel in striving for their personal and professional goals concurrently. Working motherhood is reputationally beset by negativity, but the reality is a logistical and emotional daily dance that is nothing short of brilliant and women feel proud of themselves for doing it but rarely have the opportunity to give themselves any credit.
You’ve spent much of your career shaping cultural narratives at the highest level of media. How did becoming a mother change the way you see work, ambition, and success?
Before I had children I was climbing a ladder alone, for the thrill of the climb – the future was self-centered. Since I’ve I had children it feels more like constructing a house, with different priorities and strategies building towards one wider picture of the future. Success is lying in bed at night reflecting on how lucky I feel about whatever went well that day to ensure everybody is safe and happy. I interviewed Ruth Chapman OBE, co-founder of MatchesFashion.com for my book and she quoted Maya Angelou: “Success is liking yourself, liking what you do, and liking how you do it.”
At what point did you realise this book needed to exist, not as a think piece, but as a practical guide?
I met so many women who had tales to tell but felt they weren’t worth telling. The taxi driver, for example, who has four children and studied The Knowledge when her twins were 18-months old, and who credits her work (in part) for getting her through some incredibly challenging family experiences. But she said, “I’m amazed you’re interested in me, I’m just a taxi driver.” Early parenthood can be a lonely place, as can working parenthood - which is crazy when so many of us are doing it. It’s been sidelined or stigmatized for fear of sounding mundane, but there is genuine joy in sharing the commonalities within such a multifaceted experience. The book started out as a companion for women going through something that made them feel alone, and it’s developed into a celebration of women comparing experiences and cheering each other on. Every time I interviewed anyone for the book their stories literally poured out of them which would reconvince me that the book needed to happen.
The language around “having it all” still lingers. What do you think we get most wrong about ambition in mid-life?
Comparison genuinely is the thief of joy, but our own ambition can still be deeply influenced by our perception of the lives of people around us. And we tend to make so many assumptions about people living lives that may be different to our own, that we forget the commonalities that make us feel better if we talk about them. The truth is that one person’s “all” is another person’s nightmare – the fun is in discovering what makes my family happy, even if it’s nothing Instagram-worthy and it’s not necessarily what makes another family tick.
From your interviews, what small structural changes made the biggest difference to women successfully re-entering the workplace?
Rich, honest conversations at work about all the different options that might make it work, be it altered hours, full flexibility or job share arrangements on a permanent or temporary basis. It sounds so simple and yet they are still some of the hardest conversations to have. But you can only make it work by trying. And always remember you can change your mind. Your first return-to-work decision might feel frightening, but it doesn’t have to be permanent.
If you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice at the start of motherhood, what would it be?
Ask for the advice of other women who have done it. Don’t be shy – they love talking about it even if they don’t do so habitually.
If Leaving the Ladder Down sparks one meaningful change, what do you hope it will be?
That the conversation about and for working parenthood becomes a triumphant one celebrating the achievement of the people doing it, rather than being relegated to eyes-to-heaven HR meetings that make parents feel aberrant.
WEALTH
Describe your relationship with money and personal finance in three words?
Reserved, organised, chaotic (occasionally)
How do you define wealth?
Not being frightened of the future
What money lessons did you learn when growing up? What would you have done differently?
My father would worry openly about it – he worked incredibly hard and acted as if we had none while my mother tended to take a much more optimistic approach so I’m a cross between them both. When I was first earning I pretended to myself that £1,000 in the bank was zero so I’d never go below it. I’ve always been wary of debt. When I was first paying rent, living on my own, I wrote down every single purchase in a notebook every night - remarkably effective at curbing spend. Having said that, some days I behave like I’m not scared of anything, which usually means buying clothes.
What has been the most helpful tool for you to learn about money?
Being financially independent before I got married, then marrying someone with the same attitude to money as my own. I didn’t realise when we first met what an advantage it would be, and I like a lot of more romantic things about him too (!), but arguing about money must be one of the most depressing things in a relationship and it’s the scourge of some marriages so I feel lucky on that basis. I’m not claiming we never disagree but we have always felt easy talking about money which really is an advantage when you’re building a life together.
What is the best money decision you have made?
I was told early in my career by an HR director that “women shy away from talking about money.” It triggered the rebel in me and I have consequently never been reticent about bringing the subject up or having frank conversations about it in a professional context.
WELLNESS
What practices, physical or philosophical, keep you anchored when life gets chaotic?
Get outside, preferably into nature. Move your body. Breathe deeply (in for 7, hold for 7, out for 8). Call a friend. Not ground-breaking but as a combination it’s unbeatable.
Is there a particular place or person you turn to for inspiration?
Richmond Park. If I can get to the sea, even better.
Do you have a morning routine to set you up for a productive day?
Reading in bed with a cup of Lapsang Souchong tea. I’ll set my alarm especially early to fit it in if I have to. I go through stages when there just isn’t time (or I need the extra sleep!) but I always have a better day if it starts like that.
What are you currently reading and listening to?
Reading Drayton & Mackenzie by Alexander Starritt – interesting to read about a male friendship in such detail. Also The Amazing Generation by Jonathan Haidt and Catherine Price to work out how to keep persuading my children that smartphones and social media wouldn’t, contrary to their strong opinion, improve their lives beyond measure. But my favourite book last year, which I can’t not mention, was The Correspondent by Virginia Evans. Brilliant, I wish I’d written it. I love Radio 4 in the morning, and one of my favourite podcasts is TherapyWorks by Julia Samuel and her two psychotherapist daughters Emily and Sophie, and my failsafe is Desert Island Discs.
One ritual that never fails you?
Reading in bed with a cup of tea.
A book or idea that changed how you see the world.
The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron – if we nurture the creative within ourselves, no matter who we’ve assumed ourselves to be until now, we can change the course of our life.
The sound, scent, or space that instantly grounds you?
The sea. I craved the sight of it after lockdown. If I’m ever worried or sad, I have an urge to get to the coast. There’s a wonderful (but tearjerking) poem that ends with this verse which I think explains it:
‘And if, on a sunset evening
In the years that are to be
You gaze at the golden pathway
That stretches across the sea
Shut your eyes for a while, beloved,
And all your doubts dispel
I’ll come back down the shining pathway
To whisper ‘All is well.’
And finally; what does ‘enough’ mean to you?
Lying in bed at night gong through all the tiny things that went well today, from making a child laugh to pitching an idea I’ve been mulling. When life feels like it’s always asking things of me, it’s helpful to focus on what I have achieved rather than berate myself for what I haven’t yet got done.